Ep 110 Creativity: ‘Metallica’s rock ‘n roll insights on creativity and leadership’ from HOW Design Live 2020

Show notes

What’s going on, everybody? And welcome into the 110th episode of the Crazy One Podcast. As always, I’m your host, Stephen Gates, and this is the show where we talk about creativity, leadership, design, and a whole lot of other stuff. That help to empower creative people. Now, as always, remember, you can listen to the shows, get the show notes, and also be sure to check out the new content I’ve been making for the Crazy One YouTube channel. And you can find all of that just head over to thecrazyone.com. It’s thecrazyandthenumberone.com. Remember, hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform to get the latest episodes whenever those come out. And if you have any questions, you just want to sort of keep up with my adventures, get some different content than what I do here on the show, you can either follow me on Twitter or Instagram, and you can follow the show on LinkedIn or Facebook. Now last year at How Design Live, I’d started to do something different. And what I wanted to do is that every year at that event, I wanted to sort of look back over the past year and really sort of Bring what I thought were the people who were the most interesting, the most inspirational, the funniest, the people who sort of are having a really big impact on me and bring them to the event for a conversation. And you’ll see in one of the past episodes, last year’s was with Sina Musayab, who is, um, one of, an ex-IDEO member out of San Francisco, and Greg Larkin, uh, the, the author of the book, This Might Get Me Fired. And I think it was a great conversation around what is innovation? How do you do it? If you missed it, go back and check it out. Cena has a, an analogy about how, uh, about how creating innovations like playing Super Mario Brothers that I think is just brilliant. But this year I wanted to do something different and again try to again bring a voice that maybe a lot of people haven’t heard or don’t have access to or things like that. And I didn’t have to look very far because about three years ago I did a piece of work that I think since then has gotten more questions, more outreach about than anything else, and that was some work that I did with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame band Metallica. It was, I don’t know how to describe the, how to describe working with them and their team. I think it was fun. It was challenging. It was inspirational and candidly, I think unexpected in the best possible way. And that what I thought I was going to find in this band that had been around forever that had such an influence on culture, an influence on design. I mean, you can’t walk down the street without seeing somebody wearing a Metallica t-shirt. That I was gonna find this sort of, like, egotistical, rock and roll, like, you know, stereotypical, I don’t know what, I’d watch one too many Cameron Crowe series or something. And what I found was something that was so completely the opposite. And it was such the thing of like, I just want to take designers and teams and leaders and sit them down and have them look at the band and how they operate because I think they have been at the top of their game for forty years for a reason. If you look at the way that they work with their team, the way that they have an opinion, but they also really listen to people and will sort of concede the lane to an expert because they’re just like, look, you know, I, we trust the people who are around us. If you look at how their creative process probably is I think the purest version of dot divergent and convergent creative thinking and creation that I may be ever seen. It just was something that I think an experience I’m still sort of catching my breath from. So what I wanted to do was to sit down for this interview that’s going to be in this episode. With a guy named Mark Ryder. And Mark has been with the band for about thirty years. He has a career that spanned through Sony Music and Q Prime management and now for the past four or five years has worked as the full-time Manager and I guess chief creative guy for the band. And I think, you know, this is a guy who whenever you go to his LinkedIn profile, I think it says head pot washer or something. Funny and dismissive like that, but if you know him, this is a guy who’s won multiple MTV Music Awards, who’s had a huge influence on a lot of creative for bands like Pearl Jam and Metallica and created some really, really, you know, important work. Couldn’t be more humble, couldn’t be more friendly. So what I wanted to do is to sit down and just have a conversation with him to talk about his career, to talk about the band, how they work, and to give a little bit of a behind-the-scenes look into all of that because it’s a world not many people get to be able to see. So I hope that you find it as interesting and inspirational as I did. I hope you check out some of the videos and the documentary and some of the things that we talk about, because I know that it may not seem like, well, yeah, if I’m. You know, doing anything but music I could learn from these guys, but trust me, you can. So here is my conversation with Mark Ryder, the chief creative guy of Metallica from How Design 2020. So I think for those of you who’ve been around Hal for any amount of time, I think every year I try to sort of go through and look at the last year or so and kind of say, hey, look, What are some of the most interesting people that I know who are doing some of the most interesting things and be able to sort of come to HAL and have a conversation with them? About, actually, I think three years ago this week, I got an email from a friend of mine who said, hey, We have like this branding project we’re working on for a client that I can’t talk about on a timeframe that I can’t give you for a thing that we think is going to be challenging, but this could be right up your alley. Do you want to be a part of it? And I said, look, honestly, like I am super burnout. I don’t think I’m in the mood to be able to do this. And he sort of wrote me back and he was like, look, I, I think this probably is going to be something you are going to want to do. I agreed to it and about a month later found myself in the, a conference room in SoHo with what turned out to be Project for Metallica to be able to create what would become Black and Whiskey. And at that point, that was the first time that I met Mark Ryder, who we have got here, who’s here with us today. And I think Mark you you got to I think probably have for me what is one of the funniest and I guess probably appropriately one of the most rock and roll linked in. Profiles as according to that you spent twenty-four years as the plumber at Q Prime and then have spent the last four and a half years as the pot washer for Metallica so. I think probably just by way of introduction, just tell us a little bit about yourself, like what you’ve done because you’ve been in music, restaurants, all sorts of different things. Yeah, well, first of all, thank you, Stephen. I’m honored and flattered to To be here, um, and very happy that you couldn’t find anyone else to, uh, to join you. Um, yeah, so I, my, my story is, uh, My, my journey is, is long and laborious. I guess I, my, my 10,000 hours started in, um, in upstate New York. Listening to the radio and not really being able to do very much else other than love music and skateboard and those I realized that I wasn’t going to make it as a pro skateboarder so I better figure out Someone and I couldn’t play an instrument. So I better figure out something else to do. So I started working in record stores and then parlayed that into an internship at a record company and Did nine years at Sony Music and had an amazing time and uh, was very fortunate enough to uh, to meet Cliff Bernstein and Peter Mensch at uh, Q Prime Management and uh, they Picked me out of Sony music in 1992 and I, and I did, as you said, uh, twenty-four years there. Um, I, uh, Claimed to be a plumber there I don’t know why really but I just I used to I remember friends of mine that were in the financial world whenever they would be out at bars and people would say what do you do for a living they would always say they were plumbers because. Because it sounded a lot more interesting than saying they were, they were, um, stock brokers or financial people. And, um, so I just put that down and, and, uh, Anyway, I did that for for a number of years and one of our one of our biggest clients was Metallica and I had the pleasure of working very closely with them and and um About five years ago, they, uh, started making inquiries about, uh, perhaps, uh, working directly one-on-one with them. And, uh, It was at a time when my wife and I were about to become empty nesters with our daughters both going off to college or finishing college. We decided that it was time for a change and uprooted from the east coast and moved out. Loaded up the truck and moved to Berkeley and that was that was that and so now here we are out west working with one band instead of twenty bands and. And there you have it. Well, so, so just for everybody’s benefit, what, what exactly does the chief creative guy for Metallica do? Whatever they want. I should, I should have seen that answer coming. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, it’s the greatest thing about Metallica, and there are many great things about them, um, but You know, you don’t get to have a nearly four decade long career as as vastly successful as they’ve had without consistently breaking the mold and and You know, breaking down a barrier after barrier the way they have. Uh, and, and, and that, you know, that comes with, with, you know, being mavericks as, as they are, but also. You know, challenge making a lot of challenges creatively and and that for for someone that that has a you know, a hint of of of creative. Muscle or a hint of creativity the way I’d like to think I do, although, like I said, I can’t play an instrument, but I like to think that I’ve got some. Some ideas in my mind that can help further uh, an artist’s career uh, that’s That is so stimulating and that it’s so motivating. So, uh, when I was at Q Prime, you know, we had, as I said, we had a lot of artists that we worked with and they were all fantastic to work with, but To have an artist of Metallica’s caliber and at their stature and to be able to walk into a meeting with them and or just sit down with them and say okay so here’s what we’re thinking and just come up with the most outlandish ideas and normally you know you You go to a younger band and come up with these really crazy ideas. The older bands are normally, and I don’t say older in age, I just mean older as in more established and ones that have been around for a little longer. Normally, you know, they’re at the point where they want to play it a little safer. They may even be interested in starting to think about taking a victory lap, so to speak. Um, these guys, you know, you go in and you come up with the craziest ideas and the guys in Metallica, they were just that band. They would look at you and say, Well, that’s a pretty crazy idea. Has anyone ever done that before? And you’d normally, I would say no. And they go, great, let’s do that. So again, just. They would constantly challenge me and challenge everyone at Q Prime, but, but, you know, mostly they were, they were always challenging me to come up with bigger greater, um, uh, more unique ideas and, uh, and they still do. So that that’s, uh, you know, case in point blackened, which you and I worked together on, uh, was something that, that, uh, You know, I’m pleased and proud to say that, you know, I had a lot, a lot to do with, with, with the concept and initial concept of, I mean, it took, it took. scores of us to execute it. But, uh, you know, in coming up with that, it was like, Hey, why don’t we, why don’t we do a spirit? Uh, I think it’s a great extension of who, you know, you guys are as a brand and your fans are You know, a lot of your fans are very into, you know, into whiskey and the spirits world. And, uh, we just think it would be really great. And there obviously are a lot of challenges with, with that, uh, obviously due to, um, Couple members of the band being sober but but this is more about the fans than it is about the band but why don’t we start doing that. And as soon as you say that they don’t just say yeah that’s great let’s do it. They start asking the tough and challenging questions that. That goes so deep and so, you know, so in depth about themselves and about their brand and about You know, just more challenging things than you’re ever going to get from anybody else. And that’s, again, what makes them so unique and so incredible to work with. Sorry, did I take up the entire half hour with that? Wait, nah. No, but I think, but for me, I think, you know, like for me, just sort of coming into the process, I mean it’s amazing because you know just sort of what it is you talked about there were so many like leaders or CEOs who I just almost want to sit down and show them the way that that you know you and the band work because Look, I think I definitely came in with a preconception about look this is a band that’s been around for forty years and the rock like there is so much that you would expect ego you would like you would expect like all these sort of things and for me I was so. I mean it sounds weird almost to say right I was so blown away by how nice everybody is how invested everybody is how there is a you know I think everybody has a very strong sense of opinion. But at places, you know, again, there is that look, we understand that people have been brought in to be an expert and we should let them be the expert. And to me, it’s like you really, you know, and that’s why I said for me, having seen the business workings or even the insanity that is a tour or something like that. It, there is, there is something very different and special where you can see that that’s sort of why the success has gone on and come out of that for so long. Yeah, I think you’re right, I think you just kind of surmised in forty-five seconds what just took me about nine minutes to say, but that is yeah I think the bottom line is, you know. You don’t get to be who you are, who Metallica is and where Metallica is at this point in their career without them being their assassins at what they do. Um, and they are assassins because of the music and the art that they’ve created over all these years. Um, but I think they stay where they are because they also hire assassins. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that, and I think that’s such, yeah, I think that, I think just that dedication to that, and we’ll get back to that more in a second, but I think one of the things that I found Utterly fascinating which so again as I exist in the world of business and efficiency and obviously that exists there too. One of the things that we’ve talked about and even sort of joked about I think is the band’s almost. Famously inefficient creative process in how they make music and sort of how they approach it. And so I just wanted to see if you could just sort of Describe that for people or sort of talk about whenever they do make music, how does that work? Because I’m, I’m guessing it’s probably different than what a lot of people think that creative process would look like. Yeah, well, I’ve, I’ve only been around it, um. I mean, I’ve only been around it since since just after they finished recording the black album. Um, so I mean, only, I mean, I’ve seen them record. But, but I mean, seriously, I’ve seen them record half of their, their creative output. Um, in, in, in terms of musical output. Uh, so I can’t speak to, you know, the first five albums, but um, which, which were recorded very differently because back then they were, you know, They had a far lower budget and far less time to record them. They didn’t own their own studio. Uh, so things were, things were done much differently back, back in the day when, when they were younger, hungrier and, and, and, you know, like I said, didn’t have the The luxury of their own recording studio, their own clubhouse to go into, um, and things like that. So the recording process is vastly different now than it was back in the day. But the way they do things now is different from many recording artists for a number of reasons, really for a myriad of reasons. Namely, the fact that, like I said, they’ve got their own studio, so they don’t have to worry about, you know, um. Justin Bieber is due in a week from Wednesday so you’ve got to finish by Tuesday night at midnight because your your gear is being loaded out at eleven fifty-nine p.m. Like I said, a week from Tuesday. Or something like that. They’ve got the studio locked out for as long as they want it. So they’re free to create for as long as they want. There are no deadlines for the record’s release. It’ll come out when it’s ready. And, and that, that kind of, that kind of, um, you know, lack of deadline allows them to be as free as they want, as free as they wish to create. You know, the other amazing benefit, um, and this is, you know, this allows the artistic freedom that everybody, I think, wishes for is the fact that they own their own record label. Um, and, and again, you want to talk about, you know, not having anybody breathing down your neck. There’s, there’s no record label saying, when’s the record coming? Um, Well, there is. I mean, I, I guess it’s, it’s themselves and, and they do, and they do put a lot of pressure on themselves, but at the same time, again, it’s, it’s, They are their own bosses, and that’s wonderful. It is a blessing and a curse, but at the same time, they put their own pressure on themselves. Rather than some giant corporate entity saying, you know, we need to make our quarter so you’ve got to get this record out by by Christmas or something like that. So those are all those are all great benefits. At the same time, you know, without having those kind of pressures, sometimes records take a little bit longer and Metallica fans know all too well because the most asked question From any fan is always, when’s the next album? And anytime we put out a re-release, when we remaster the catalog and put it out, Fans are very happy to get a new version of a previous release, a remastered version, or when we do a new project of any kind that’s non-musical, Fans are all too happy to see a collaboration with, you know, uh, Nixon watches or van sneakers or blackened whiskey, for example, but. Fans are always like, yeah, that’s great. When’s the new album coming? So again, people always want new music. And uh, oftentimes, you know, some fans can get, can sometimes get a bit frustrated to say, well, are, are all these other things that you’re doing, are they distractions that are preventing New music. And the answer is no, they’re not. They’re just extensions of the band’s creativity that, you know, because there are times when They just can’t make music as quickly as they want because it’s not coming to you, you know? Yeah. No, and I think it’s, that’s what I said. For me, it’s just, it’s a fascinating process. I think the other part of the process to me has been I don’t know, as I think about in music or anything else, I think a group of artists who have been so open about that process, right? I think obviously You know, the some kind of monster documentary comes to mind where you can see a younger incarnation of you as a part of that process. Um, but I think, you know, there is also just like you said, making music over that sort of forty years. I mean, is there. As you think about sort of teamwork or how to sort of keep that going, as they’re sort of going through that process, have there been any lessons or insights or things like that where you’re just kind of either that were surprising or that Again, you know, were things that you always sort of thought and it just took a while to be able to figure out around how to stay that creative or even just sort of stay around each other for that sort of length of time. That’s a great question, but I don’t know if there’s really an answer to it. Um, that, you know, because every, you know, they’re all snowflakes, you know, I mean. And I don’t, and I don’t mean, and please don’t let that be the takeaway from this session. Uh, I think that that’s the description of every creative in the world. That’s what I mean. That’s definitely not. That’s not Metallica or Snowflakes, but you know, we’re, everyone is, we’re all Snowflakes, but really, I mean, you, what, what works for Metallica may not work for You know, Ariana Grande, which may not work for, you know, idols is really cool punk band from England, which may not work for someone who’s who’s in their bedroom right now putting in their 10,000 hours to be tomorrow’s, you know. Next hip hop legend. So I, I just, you, you, you can’t say this is how you do it because there’s no formula for success. Um, what, what, you know, in music in, you know, in graphic arts in, uh, you know, in filmmaking. In whatever, uh, it’s just, it, it, it’s whatever works for you. And, and, you know, just to go back to the, to the last question, um, cause I, I don’t think I, I, Really answered it properly and I don’t mean to take up too much more time answering older questions, but you know, one thing that Metallica does that is very different in making their music is, They take a series of riffs, um, and a lot of Metallica fans know this, but maybe a lot of, a lot of the, well, maybe some of the, twelve viewers that are, that are, that maybe hopefully stayed with us, uh, don’t know about how Metallica create their, their art. Um. What they do is rather than just like writing a song and playing it through and then honing it and turning that into, you know, one song on an album, Metallica tend to, sometimes they do write that way, but what they tend to do is Throughout the course of months and months and months, they take a series of riffs, you know, riffs being these, you know, just these like short bursts of sound and. They record all these riffs and, and over the, over the course, like sometimes on tour before they go on stage, they, they practice, they jam before they go on stage. So when they go on there, they’re hot, you know, it’s like warming up before you race or, or, you know, before you Do anything you, you tend to warm up and that’s what they do. But in that, in the jam room before they go on stage, sometimes they record everything that they do. So sometimes they’ll jam and they’ll get a few riffs before they go on stage. Sometimes they’ll in the studio, they’ll, they’ll come up with new riffs. So when they go in to start making a record, they’ve got hundreds and hundreds of riffs. And Lars, one of Lars’s many talents is he’s a fantastic arranger. I mean, an amazing arranger. And he also has a photographic memory. So Lars has this incredible ability with his photographic memory to say, Remember that riff from Cincinnati in 2018? Let’s, let’s go back and grab that riff and there’s another riff from Copenhagen in 2019 from the summer tour. Let’s take those two riffs and try to combine them and the engineer will go back and pull these riffs and they’ll put them together and they’ll like kind of Frankenstein the beginnings of a song. And then the band will play those riffs together, and lo and behold, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but you’ll get the makings of You know, a verse or a chorus and then James will start writing lyrics to it. Uh, but they’ll, they’ll take that and they’ll modify it into a song and that that’s, that’s how a lot of their, their songs, at least since I’ve been involved. have started to come together and these, you know, these riff tapes as Lars calls them will start to create the makings of songs and it’s really a fascinating project so I don’t know how many rock bands do it that way but It’s pretty cool. It’s almost like they’re sampling themselves. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I, for me, it was just, I’m always sort of a creative process junkie, and I think if anybody’s interested, the band actually does put out YouTube videos for the making of a particular song, so you can actually sort of watch the evolution of it, but For me, it was sort of like that divergent thinking in its purest form of let’s just go do a bunch of stuff. We don’t know where this is going. You know, we’re not sure what this is. And like I said, then we’re just going to be able to go back and say. Hey, what about this? Hey, what about and the fact that just the way that it that comes together and I think yeah you definitely Lars’s orchestration of that but yeah I think that to me was such. That’s what I say. It’s like we’ve all watched one too many movies or something about what that should look like or be like. So yeah, I think for me that was always fascinating. Um, but, but you sort of talked before about, cause I mean, look, this is a band that. Just even, you know, if we just even look at since sort of COVID has happened, um, you know, again, has put out, um, a performance and a film, um, With the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, has done a drive-in concert, is doing a benefit concert this Saturday, um, has been, you know, did a remote sort of version of Blacken, which was obviously the song, um. But there’s, there’s just so much of, gee, I wouldn’t expect that, but damn, it really worked. And so, I mean, I was sort of curious from. Your side is like you said, whenever you take them ideas, how do, how do either you think about like what would either be a good fit or like. How do we assess what is going to be different or innovative or because that’s why I said they’re just such unexpected things that seem to happen so regularly something like is going on with with with all of you guys to be able to do that for such a length of time. Well, I mean, I wish I could say that the ideas were all mine, but they’re, you know, um, a mere fraction of the ideas are mine. Um, they’re, they’re really, they, they come from, from everywhere and, and oftentimes they come from the guys themselves, from the band themselves. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, look, when we’re When we’re sitting around during this craziness of the last nine and a half months trying to figure out what to do, It’s, it’s hard because like I said, we’re trying to figure out what to do when all we know is what we can’t do and what they couldn’t do were the two things that they want that they love to do the most and that is play live or get together. In the studio and jam or record from jams. So, so that they’ve been trying to record a little bit remotely and they’ve tried they’ve figured out a few things that they can do but but They were really just trying to say, well, what can we do? Our fans are clamoring for stuff and we just don’t know how to make this work. So the first thing that Some, some of the team in, in, in the fan club that you, that you know, Steven, um, came up with was, was the idea for Metallica Mondays. Which, um, was really nothing more than, it was an amazing idea, but it was nothing more than just digging deep into the vault and pulling out some existing shows. Live shows that that many people hadn’t seen before, but we had edited and and just putting them up on YouTube for everyone to see and and again it was it was something that. We had stored away in the vaults. It cost us a little bit of money to remix them and to post them. But to us, it was, you know, it was money very well spent. And, uh, and all we did was we, you know, YouTube and, and, and Facebook were very cool about. You know, about posting them. They were also very cool about promoting them for us. And we asked fans to consider making a donation since they were free. We asked them to consider making a donation to the bands All Within My Hands Foundation. Um, which the, the benefit that you mentioned is, is taking place, uh, for the foundation on Saturday. Um, please consider watching everyone pay per view. Um, anyway, uh, but. And, and, and we fans donated over a hundred thousand dollars just out of goodwill. But anyway, we, we. We did this for twenty-six weeks and it became like appointment viewing for so many people and the numbers were insane. Far beyond anything that we thought it was going to be, to the point where, you know, Facebook and YouTube were reaching out to us saying, you guys are the most watched, you know, you’re the most watched regular show on Mondays for us. And, and again, like that’s, that’s not what we were hoping for, but it just kind of, it just happened by, you know, Just naturally. Um, and all we were trying to do was just say to our fans, say, look, we know we’re not touring right now, but this is the next best thing. And, and this is something we do. And again, that, that came out of. Out of the fan club, uh, team sitting around with, with Lars, who also, you know, helped come up with this and, and, and saying, what can we give our fans who can’t see us live and in person? Uh, what can we do? What’s the next best thing? So, you know, then, then the next thing was, okay, what else, what can we do now that, you know, when, when COVID was, was, you know, starting to relax a little bit in the, in the summer, um, and, and the guys felt comfortable getting together. Uh, and, and trying something out, we, we came up with the, you know, we didn’t come up with the drive-in idea, but, but, uh, you know, the, the folks at, at, um, At the company that had done the Garth Brooks and the Blake Shelton Show had approached us and said, hey, you know, do you guys want to do the first rock show? And we said, yeah, let’s do it. And like I said, the band felt comfortable enough to do it. We created this very, very tight bubble um, with very strict uh, you know, quarantine rules and and uh, it was a forty person bubble including the crew and everyone and and we pulled off this event and and uh, Again, it was, it was very successful. We were very happy that we were able to do it. And that led to the band saying hey maybe we can actually do a little bit of recording which which you know that they’re at least jamming a little bit and trying to create some new music because they’re so it’s so pent up in them that they haven’t been able to get together. So that’s at least they’re, you know, they’re writing, they’re jamming, they’re doing a little bit, but most of it’s remote. But it’s, they just have to create. But, um, you know, it’s almost like, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. You know, you just, you feel that it’s so necessary during these, these, these nine months. That you have to do something or else you’re going to lose it. If you’re a creative person, and I’m sure again, I don’t mean to speak for the Whatever audience we have right now, but I’m sure everybody feels that way that you know you’ve got to do something. So you’re in and you’re going to figure out you’re going to figure out a way to do it whether it’s you know just running outside and. And, uh, creating street art or, or, or, you know, you’re going to do something if you’re a creative. Yeah. Well, so we so a couple more minutes left so I’ll prompt everybody that if you got any questions for mark about anything like that you can feel free to put them in the chat or the q amp a panel and we’ll get to those here in just a minute, but it does feel like a good place to sort of wrap up with that which is thinking about. Customers, fans, those sort of things that, again, I think it’s not, it’s not an insignificant part of, you know, whatever it was, the Metallica Mondays, whether it’s, you know, Megan, I’ve heard at one point that Like even Spotify data gets used to start to influence some of like what’s the playlist that the band might play whenever they go to a particular town or I think that there is a lot of. That, that, you know, that is definitely sort of a part of that with, you know, um, with that. So, you know, what, what is that relationship or like I said, how much of that is. Looking to them or drawing for them and how much is sort of like, hey, we think this is something they’re going to want and sort of how do you balance the two. Not sure I understood that. So what I’m saying is so I think there are things you can definitely say hey the fans want X let’s give the fans what they want versus I think there are other times when I don’t know that you ever would have gone to the fans and said hey I’m not sure that they want us to go play with a symphony orchestra. So a sort of balancing, knowing that there are a lot of there’s a very, very passionate fan base that has some very, very strong opinions of how much do you listen to that versus how much of hey look, we’re going to try to do something a little bit different from that. Great, great question. Um, so good that I didn’t understand it. That’s, that’s okay. Yeah. So no, but, but it, that, that’s a great question. And you know what, it is a fine line that, that the band, um, Look, the band have always had an amazing relationship with their fans since day one, and they’ve always taken the fans’ opinions into account. You know, the thing is, um, You know, they have, they have an incredibly large, you know, legion of fans. Um, so, and, and those fans have a very, you know, have differing opinions. It’s, the fans don’t think as one. Um, hopefully they think it’s one in terms of their, their love for the band, but, but not in terms of their love for, for, you know, the 140 song catalog that the band has or, or, uh, you know, where the band’s going to play next and everything else. But, but in, in, in terms of like, you know, what direction the band are going to go in or what, you know, set lists, for example, things like that. Um, it, it, it, it’s a fine balance as, as I said, uh, you know, for example, you mentioned Spotify, you know, that that’s, that’s a factor in, in determining some of the set lists that they’ll play in a particular market, but. You know, it doesn’t dictate the entire setlist. What, what, um, you know, again, Metallica fans know that Lars is, is the one who, who helps put the setlist together. So what he’ll do is he’ll look at, at local radio, the local rock stations playlist and what Metallica songs they play. And then he’ll look at the local Spotify, um, Playlist as well, because you can, you can do both of those things. I mean, obviously you can see the rock station in Champaign, Illinois and see what, what they play. And you can also look at, at. You know, the Quad Cities Spotify playlist. So both of those determine what people in that part of Illinois listen to for Metallica. So in a way you are getting the requests of Metallica’s fans in that region. So you’re finding out what their favorite Metallica songs are. So Lars will take that information and he’ll see, okay, based on that, I know that these are the top twenty Metallica songs in that part of Illinois. He’ll then go back and look at the playlists from the last time Metallica played in That part of Illinois and I’ll go, okay, we played all those songs. I don’t want to repeat the same exact song, so I’m not going to play everything the same. And then he’ll say, okay, but I have to play a couple of the, you know, as we like to call them the toe tapping favorites, uh, because Mataga don’t have greatest hits. Uh, so, you know, so it, it ends up being a, a melange of, of different, you know, of different factors that contribute to something like the set list. And, and I use that example, number one, because you brought up the set list, for example, but, but it also serves as an example for every decision that Metallica makes. You take all of these factors and you put them all into a pot and you make the stew. You know, so not no one factor becomes the lone decision maker, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that it does. And that’s why I said, I think there’s, yeah, I think that was definitely, at least for me, the, I had no idea of just how much I think goes behind the, because you just, you’re just showing up to the show and it’s like, oh, they just go on stage and play. And it’s like, yeah, no, there’s so much more that And also, and what I didn’t say is, you know, also if there’s a new album to promote, which oftentimes there is, but not always. Sometimes the band just say, hey, you know what? We’re in between records. We’re in the studio. We’re really bored. We’re going to go out and tour right now. So there isn’t a new album to promote, but if there is, you also want to promote songs from the new album. So you’re going to throw in three, four, sometimes five new songs. To, to play that they’ve never played before in that city. So like I said, there’s, there are many factors in deciding which songs that are going to get played in a set list, but fans should know that, you know, Lars doesn’t take one set list. Uh, lightly. He takes them all very, very seriously. And the band too. You know, the other thing is he takes James’s vocals into consideration. He’s not going to play, you know, five songs that are going to make, you know, the, In a row that are going to make James’s voice strain so that he can’t finish the tour off and there’s all these different factors and it’s, it’s a lot of work. Yeah. No, so that, yeah. And so I’ll say again, yeah, if anybody has any questions for Mark or stuff like that, throw them into the QMA. If not, I’ll definitely keep going. Um, so I’m, I’m curious for right now, like what, what are, what have you been doing or like what, what’s been sort of keeping you Creative, motivated, like just, you know, again, in such this crazy time where everybody sort of feels like they’re kind of off doing their, their own thing. What, what have you been doing to try to stay sane or is that even a possible concept? Well, staying sane is an impossible concept, but staying busy is not. Um, and, and, you know, something, I mean, look, Like you, I think, and like, like a lot of people, um, we, we, we’re trying to think, you know, a minimum of six months ahead and sometimes as many as twelve or eighteen months ahead. So a lot of the ideas that I’m working on are. Um, You know, are much further along in their conceptualizing and if not in their development. So I’m trying to think of things that are that we’re hoping to do next summer, next fall and beyond. And, uh, you know, we, we’ve got a couple of, we’ve got a couple of ideas that were, that are in the hopper that I can’t, I could tell you and I could tell the audience, but I’d have to kill them all. So let’s, let’s, let’s maybe not go down that route, but yeah. Um, but yeah, but you know, and then look, there, there’s, there’s always extensions. I mean, listen, it’s, it’s, it’s no secret that we’re, that we’re remastering our entire catalog. And as, as, uh, someone who’s, who’s, One of my chief responsibilities is helping to run the band’s record label Blackened and so, you know, we’ve released the first four albums of the band’s catalog and next up is, you know, would be the The next record in that catalog and so that’s and and and you know while we do that we’re also already working on the one after that and the one after that and so we’re always working on those and there’s. There’s a big box set that always comes when we do a remaster and the box set which which sells the least number is always the most work and the most fun because that’s, you know, that’s the, as we like to call it, that’s the kitchen sink. You know, that’s when you put everything from that project into it and the hardcore fans like the box set the most and they it’s got everything in it and Lars like likes it the most and. Funny thing is he puts the most work into it with us because he is Metallica’s biggest fan. Um, so he, he is the most involved in it and the rest of the guys, you know, they look at it briefly, but It’s really fun because when the box set comes out the other three guys like they kind of see it sometimes for the first time so they go through it and they love the box sets as much as the fans do because they kind of really open it up and get into it for the first time. Yeah. It was just a little, a little secret there. No, but that’s what I was gonna say. I think, but that’s, you know, that’s why I said, I mean, I would encourage a lot of people to me. I think, you know, it is, whether it’s through the videos on YouTube or the documentary, like those sort of things. It’s just, For me, as I think all of us are trying to figure out how do we be more creative? How do we get our team to work? How do we stay successful sustainably? How do we, I think, you know, there is, there is so much there that to me I think was constantly fascinating. I think there are There are few groups of people that I’ve worked with that I feel like I’ve had such a sustained positive reaction to being so welcomed and to be so collaborative and to be like it. It is so fantastic, but like I said, I think there’s so much for so many people to learn from because that experience is so rare. But as for me, it’s always talking about, you know, that. That that the work is the truth right whenever you have that the work that comes out of it is definitely a result of that and you know again they haven’t none of you guys have been successful for that long by mistake so. Um, well, I know it’s, it’s, uh, early there in out in the West Coast. So thanks for getting up to be with us today and to kind of go through everything. I know. No questions. Definitely. What’s that? No questions? No, I don’t know. I don’t know if everybody’s… We got a whole bunch of people out there, but nobody’s asking any questions, so I don’t know. I don’t know. You’re just… Either you’re that good or you’re that… I don’t know. That’s what I said. I would think… Come on, bring it, bring it on. Somebody, that’s what I say, we’re just going to stay on here until somebody has a question for all of us, for somebody. Somebody, anybody? That’s what I was gonna say. I don’t know. Oh, okay. Oh, there we go. And oh, so the funny part is the first two questions are exactly the same question. Um, so the funny part is what is your favorite Metallica album? Wow. Uh, the last one I listened to. Oh, come on. That’s a cop out. Um, yeah, that’s a, that’s really a great question. I don’t know if I, if I really do. I would say probably Master of Puppets. So I, I mean, I, so for me, I definitely have, like, whenever you work at a hotel, when I worked at Starwater, I was like, what’s your favorite hotel? It’s like, well, it depends on my mood, right? Oh, I know. So, yeah, the next question from Chad, I know you’re definitely probably not going to go near, which is, um, who’s your, which is your favorite member of the band? Yeah, that’s going to get a smile and a non-answer. I know that. Yeah, um, definitely the last one I spoke with. Uh, no, you know, it’s funny going back to that favorite album. Yeah, it’s probably Puppets, but I really love, I really love, um, the first S&M record too. Yeah. It’s a really special album. I think it’s always a little bit of like it depends on your mood and some of the stuff like that. So there’s the predictable, can I get backstage passes? So the answer to that is no. Yeah, that is no. Yeah, again, it’s interesting, so a few similar ones, um, if not Metallica, um, who would you want to work with? Are there any other up and coming artists or any other bands you’d love to work with? Yeah, um, there’s the punk band that I mentioned from England called Idols that I love, I-D-L-E-S, unbelievable band. Another really cool punk band called Fontaine’s DC that I’m loving right now. And there’s this really amazing indie band called Diet Sig that I love. I would just, Diet Sig are a two piece band and I just love everything they do. Now these bands all have really great management and I wouldn’t ever want to poach them. I’m just saying like if I could work with anyone, those are the bands that I would want to work with. I just, I just think they’re all really incredible. I love their energy and, and uh, they’re just, they’re amazing. So Bob wants to know, um, how long did Blacken take to develop and who was the distiller? Um. The Blacken took uh, it took a couple years to develop. The master distiller was a gentleman named Dave Pickerel, who was the master distiller behind Whistlepig Rye. Also, uh, Hill Rock, Bourbon, and um, Hill Rock, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and was the, the former master distiller at, um, Maker’s Mark for many years. Um, Dave was a legend and an amazing guy, um, and, and A friend to everyone. I mean, he was a consultant for over a hundred brands. Too many for me to remember or to mention. He was one of the most beloved men in, in, uh, in the whiskey business and, uh, our whiskey launched, uh, Labor Day weekend of 2018, Dave came up with the idea of the black noise, which was the idea of using Metallica’s music to enhance the flavor by shaking the barrels with the low frequency Metallica music and having it agitate the barrels enough that that the whiskey would seep into the barrels and get the flavor of the wood some more. And that was all that was a patent patent pending technology that Dave had come up with. Uh, and he was, he was just a scientist. Uh, with an amazing palette like he had he had all of the the traits that everybody in the whiskey business wanted. He was a remarkable guy. He launched our whiskey, like I said, he went out and promoted the hell out of it. And, uh, unfortunately on, uh, in early November of 2018, less than two months after he helped us launch the whiskey, uh, he suffered a fatal heart attack. And left us, uh, way, way, way too soon. Uh, and he, he’s, we, we miss him every day. Um, but, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m happy to say as, as tragic as that was, um. We have a new master distiller by the name of Rob Dietrich, who is a wonderful, wonderful guy, and he has some huge shoes to fill, but he is filling them Uh, more than ably and, uh, Rob came to us from Stranahan’s whiskey. And he lives in Colorado, not far from James. He is, uh, worked in the music business for a little while years ago, served our country and, uh, in Iraq. Uh, a number of years ago. So he’s a veteran and we absolutely love Rob and, uh, he is killing it for us. So, uh, that is our new master distiller. Awesome. Well, Sharon wants to know if there’s free samples for everybody who attended and Sharon I can tell you that you can go to the website to see where you can buy black and near you you can order it online and if you go to the place and they don’t have it. Tell them to get it. Uh, last question that seems like a good one comes from Chad. So he wants to know what was your most challenging creative Metallica project? Uh, I would say S&M two Last year’s album and film. Working with a symphony is never easy because of the musicians unions and Working with the symphony themselves is wonderful. Working with the behind the scenes uh, team and uh, the lawyers and the unions and everything else is never Never easy. Uh, the musicians were fantastic. The conductors, uh, were unbelievable. It was a, it was a great project that way, but, uh, Getting getting the approvals to actually release the the film and the album was was the greatest uphill challenge that I’ve ever had in my career. Um, that and, uh, you know, yeah, I’ll, I’ll leave it at that. I, I, I would say back in, in my days at, at the record company and, and at Q Prime, there were other artists, not Metallica that were, um, That were, uh, challenging would be, would be the greatest understatement, uh, uh, you could ever use. I think we’ll, we’ll, we’ll keep an eye out for the autobiography at some point whenever you feel like you, there’s you and Eric and a few people on the crew that I think at a certain point whenever you’re decided to be done, um, the books are going to be spectacular. Uh, but I would, so yeah, I’d also say, look, there’s plenty of people who, yeah, Mark, if you ever need any designers, I think there’s a lot of people who, um, definitely seem to be stepping up and, and wanting to be a part of that, but. Uh, I, like I said, I just wanted to thank you again for, for showing up today and, and sharing all this stuff. And, uh. Thank you, Steven. It was really an honor. No, of course. And so, yeah, definitely, like I said, check out the, uh, the benefit concert that the guys are doing is going to be this Saturday. Uh, and like I said, it definitely is worth going through a lot of those videos and some of the behind the scenes stuff. Cause it just, you really get a sense of. Again, just I think how human they are how again that that real commitment to I think a lot of the things that we sort of aspire to a lot of our teams, and to see it come to life in the results there’s there’s a ton to be inspired by there so thanks so much mark. All hail the crazy one. Thanks, man. We’ll see you soon. Thanks. See ya. That was my conversation with Mark Ryder from How Design 2020. I think that there’s just, it’s like I said, I think, you know, inspiration can come from a lot of different places and a lot of different sources whenever you sort of open up to it, especially for somebody like me. That’s such a creative process junkie to be able to sort of watch how they work and to be able to do so much of that. And so I said, I think there’s, there’s just, there’s a ton that people can learn from whenever you sort of look to different places. Look, as always, you can find out more about the show, find some related articles, find the show notes, and again, all the new content that I’ve been doing on YouTube. Just head over to thecrazyone.com. It’s thecrazyandthenumberone.com. As always, remember, hit the subscribe button. Do me a favor. Take just a couple minutes. Leave a review. Uh, follow me on social media. And look, everybody all in down in legal always wants me to remind you that the views here are just my own. They don’t represent any of my current or former employers. These are just my own thoughts. And as always, I say it every time because I mean it every time. But thank you for your time. I know that time is truly the only real luxury any of us have. I’m always incredibly humbled. You want to spend any of it sitting here listening to me. So, I think, hopefully, I don’t know what, go out, buy a t-shirt, listen to some live music, go like crank it up in the car and drive around, do something to be able to find some inspiration and some power, and as always, stay crazy.

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